Direto XR problems with ERG mode

[jhankey]

Rode up the Alpe this evening in "incline mode" no erg. For a fixed cadence and gradient I can hold really even watts, say 218 -222, very even very regular, very smooth. I have smoothing set to 10 but I am not sure that this would make a difference, I'll try that tomorrow at the factory setting of 2.

In ERG mode, using a ramping watts over time profile, I found that the watts do increase with the ramping target, but the reported watts on zwift has a wild variation for even small changes in rpm. You can change gear and it will initially massively over or undershoot and take several seconds to get with in the range of the target again, but still oscillating by +/- 20w.

So in normal mode my trainer appears to be fine, really good in fact. But there seems to be a massive issue in ERG mode. I haven't even got to stepped intervals yet... I'll try that tomorrow.

Really hoping that Elite will see more in the files that have been sent to them.

[jhankey]

Enesto, so today I tried zwift on both PC and android platforms. The outcome is the same for ERG mode on both of them, practically not useable.
I set up the My etraining app and followed their Trainings/Program Mode/Power-time/ Program #2 profile.

As long as I kept a really regular cadence it tracked well, say +/- 5w... result!!

gears 34T 18- 23ish smoothing set to 10. I also tried it with smoothing set to 2, the factory default, and the watts were too variable again.

Looking back through previous threads Elite have a history of similar problems on earlier versions, sigh!!. Thing is I can't seem to find what the outcomes were. A few people got direct technical support from Elite who somehow uploaded some new software it appears.

Hoping these guys get back to you with all of the data that you have provided.
Also, my etraining not loading /running on the PC ( Windows 10).

[sjoyal]

They reply me and ask for the .FIT file, i just sent them the file!

[Elite Admin S]

Hi guys

Oscillations around the power value you've set are absolutely normal.
These oscillations are due to the differences between a pedal stroke and the other (even pro riders have oscillations of around 10-15W).
To verify this, you can select level mode in my e-training and pedal at costant level and speed (so the brake doesn't move) and check with a power sensor. You'll see that those oscillations are real.

But if you think in your case oscillations are too big and that there may be a problem on the trainer, please contact our customer care at [email protected]. Our engineers will ask you some specific test to check the trainer behavior.

Regards

[enesto]

Dear Elite Admin S,

I've contacted support.
They said the ocillations are normal, and we all here agree on this.
No one here is looking for a flat line.

We reported cases of big scattering, in many of my examples in 5 seconds the values were jumping in a +80 -70 watts, with a steady cadence.

-I've sent 2 csv files to support (nobody asked this, but I thought it could be useful) with smoothing=2 and smoothing=10 interval training, Andrea Brotto is in charge of my ticket (don't know who is Elite Admin, maybe it's the same person...), no word was spent on looking at these files and no word was spent on the amount of the oscillations;
-No additional/different tests were requested
-No log file or anything's been requested
-I've asked to be contacted by a responsible, but my question has been, simply, ignored by support.
-Vendor was put in copy and said that, if elite confirms that the unit has problem, they will retire it
-Elite says that everithing's ok (how? looking at my files? using preconfigured answers?)
-Elite says that, if I still think that the unit is not working, I can ask vendor for a change.

So now I'm between the devil and the deep sea.

That said, I've spent enough money and, moreover, to much of my time; I will deal with this, and I'll configure the trainer with the highest smoothing factor possible and I'll accept the related slowness in changing levels.

As I said, except for ERG, the trainer is a very good product, I can survive enjoying it only at 75% of its capabilities, I found worst ways in my life to spend 850 euros...

Just a suggestion, and this, for this topic will be my last comment (hoping in future I've no other problems except replacing the belt....) when a customer is contacting support with real data, real analysis, real problems, don't deal with him as he was here just to waste your time.
A good and shared support can add a big value on how the market feels the quality of your product, my idea is that you can improve on this (elite replied on this forum after 14 days and 22 posts!!)

Regards, and thanks a lot to other guys for sharing their experience.

[Elite Admin S]

Good morning Ernesto

I've just talked with Andrea Brotto, that took in charge your case.
I can assure you that he is more than qualified to follow your case as he is one of our most experienced engineers.

Of course he has carefully analyzed your data.
The range of oscillations in your training are inside the normal limit (up to +/-30W).
In some particolar points the oscillation is bigger, but this happens usually during a power change (where elongations can appear).
Also, your pedaling seems quite irregular looking at your speed and cadence and this affects oscillations.
He explained all these points through long and detailed emails.

Considering all these, he concluded that your trainer is perfectly functioning.
He also told you that if you are not convinced you can contact the shop and ask for a replacement of the trainer (even if the trainer is ok).

Regards

[fab4mas]

Dear Elite support,

onestly i think that fluctuation of 30/40W are not a normal behaviour for a cyclist in this kind of enviroment. You are basically telling us that direto XR is not good for ERG mode because with this kind of spikes during the activity the trainer is constantly tryin to increase or decrease the resistanze to match the target watts.

If you look at Dc Rainmaker or Shane MIller review of your trainer the behaviour was really different and u can see it in the graph the post in their reviews

from DC Rainmaker review:
"The next bit is stability. In the case of the above workout, it was after doing 90 mins of relatively hard riding. So I was a little bit shot. So some of the intervals I was a little bit less stable than others. The key ones to look at were #5 & #6, where I actually pretended to focus on pedaling nice and smooth and focusing on form. In that case, those were pretty darn smooth."
from dc rainmaker website

in the video review from DC (https://youtu.be/Ln4XCUhDXwk?t=495 link at the ERG section of the video) he is basically sayng that ERG mode is working better than the previous version of direto.

I own a direto 2018 and ERG mode works fine, flucation in the 5/8 WAtt range...so i expect from an XR direto a better behaviour in the scenario.

[Elite Admin S]

@fab4mas,

In Ernesto case, with that speed and cadence, 30W are considered normal.
Please look at this comparison between for example a Drivo and an ergometer:



As you can see, the oscillations are there and are real.

You could think that the oscillations are due to the trainer resistance variations, but they aren’t.
The continuous variations of the resistance done by the trainer motor are necessary to adjust the brake to the microvariations of the cyclist speed (indeed, on varying of speed, the brake must be adjusted to keep the power constant).
We have verified that the same kind of oscillations occur even if the brake is blocked, and this demonstrates that the oscillations are intrinsic to the pedaling and are not due to the trainer behavior.


As I wrote before, we are always available to analyze your data to see if there's something wrong.
In those cases, we analyze carefully speed, cadence and power to check if all is correct.
But I can assure you that usually these oscillations are due to the difference of force applied between a pedal stroke and another.

Don't hesitate to contact our customer care if you want us to analyze your specific cases

Regards

[enesto]

...
Also, your pedaling seems quite irregular looking at your speed and cadence and this affects oscillations.
...

This is simply not true.
cadence AVG 79
cadence ST. Dev 1
Max 82
Min 77

If 30W are normal with this values, please let me know which cadence and gear combination I need to try to have lower scattering values.

[fab4mas]

what i can see in that graph is different from what i see in shane miller graph, he he s just answerd me that in his tests the fluctuation was +-10 in the worst scenario.
he is tested it with low and hi watts and so did DC raymaker..they simply has obtained different (minor) fluctuations